Thread:Madkatmaximus/@comment-25625534-20150602104025/@comment-4845243-20150602235252

Ohai Sherm.

Mind if I jump in? I do love deconstructing arguments.

Anyways, this post might be really long. Since you seem pretty confident in your assertions and arguments, I'll have to be meticulous.

First, some personal notes. Like you (I'm assuming, correct me if I'm wrong) I grew up in a conservative environment. I believed what you believed about feminism and feminists, etc.

Then I met some. Feminists, that is. I know quite a few thoughtful, articulate, (and awesome) people who identify as feminists. But what is their definition of feminism? It's very simple. In fact, it's the dictionary definition.

Feminism, as a philosophy, is the belief that all people should be equal regardless of their gender. This means equal social, economic, and political rights.

That's a simple, albeit radical, belief that most of us probably agree with. And those who do not call themselves feminists really have no business trying to define feminism in a way that feminists disagree with. Under the the definition above, I am a feminist, so I will be defending a "feminist" viewpoint in this comment (just as a full disclaimer).

So, let's get to the point and examine some of your claims.


 * the feminist movement is not about equal rights for women.

That's not true, at least not according to all the people who are feminists. It's true that there are some radical feminists/radical branches of feminism that go further than simple equal rights, but it is unfair to think these groups speak for all feminists.


 * Disparity no longer exists in terms of civil rights, and has not for years.

Again, not true at all. Do you mean in the United States and other first-world nations? Feminists are not only concerned with equal rights within their own countries, but with equal rights around the world. I'm sure that you don't think women have equal rights in Saudi Arabia, for example. Even if you think that equal rights have been achieved at home, there's much to be done all over the world.

Also, let's pause and consider why "feminism" is called "feminism" and not "egalitarianism," since you bring up the term. This is really an issue of semantics. But the reason is that, historically (at the very least), men have held the hegemony, so the fight to "level the playing field" so to speak has focused on women, and still needs to in many situations. But it basically is the same thing as you probably mean by "egalitarianism."

Now, let's address the three concepts that you clearly do not take seriously: the wage gap, microaggression, and rape culture.

I don't want to get into the economics, so I won't argue with you about the wage gap. Although, for a random example, a friend of mine has pointed out that women in the computer sciences industry often get paid less for the same work (basing this off her own work in the field, I think). Do you know anything about that?

Microaggression is interesting. I don't think it is fair, however, to reduce the concept to hypersensitivity. It's more of an analysis of how embedded misogynistic ideas can be in our language without us even being aware of it. The need to make our language consistent with our beliefs about equality is important, and it's not about being offended. As I see it, microaggression is a linguistic issue.

Now let's move on to rape culture...I'm not sure why you put the "TM" on here. Rape culture isn't something that only feminists talk about. As a member of the forensics community (speech and debate in college), I have worked on and delivered speeches about rape culture. My partner for this speech is very conservative and does not consider herself a feminist. She's not really interested in microaggression and probably would dismiss the wage gap. But she is well aware of rape culture and what a terrible problem it is.

'''<- Trigger warning - I'm pretty good at being sensitive and careful when I talk about this, but if you don't want to read about or think about sexual assault because of past experiences proceed with caution. ->'''

So what is rape culture? It's the idea that the way we teach children/teens about sexuality leads to the perverted idea that women are responsible for being sexually assaulted/abused. It places the blame on the assaulted, and not the perpetrator. In order to solve the problem of sexual assault, it tries to police what women and girls wear instead of actually teaching men and boys self-control.

The fundamental idea of rape culture is that the person assaulted is at fault, and not the perpetrator. This is nonsense, and contradicts not only feminism, but also Christianity (Jesus taught men that they were responsible for their lusting, not the women or their clothes choices).

Rape culture not only exists, it is pervasive. Even in media—look at the media coverage of sexual assault cases (e.g. the infamous Ohio case). In the Christian homeschooling movement it primarily exists in the form of "purity and modesty culture," which teaches girls they are at fault for boys' "stumbling," and does nothing to teach boys self-control and respect.

Rape culture is a culture of victim-blaming, and it needs to stop.

The fact is that women are disproportionately targeted by sexual violence, all across the United States. Women are not "equal" - look at the statistics of how many women are sexually assaulted verses how many men are. That's why this is the fight of feminism. A lot can be done to help this by changing the way we teach children and teens (and adults, for that matter). People are responsible for their own actions and must be treated as such.

Does this mean women shouldn't take precautions to protect themselves against sexual violence? Of course not. But the fact that they need to much more than men demonstrates there is a problem, and it's not simply that men are more violent. We need to teach this better.

I'm glad to hear that we're on the same page about preventing sexual assault. You then say:


 * The difference is the means we will engage in to prevent it (i.e. advocating parental responsibility, stable familial situations, and early introduction to the concepts of moral absolutes, etc., versus nationwide government-mandated and taxpayer-funded "safe sexual exploration" exposure from Kindergarten forward or else).

Again, you are generalizing feminists. I am a feminist, and many other feminists agree with me. I advocate better education (e.g. teaching self-control, very clear knowledge of consent, perpetrators are responsible, etc.), and not "safe sexual exploration." Yes we need better sex ed (especially in the homeschooling community, sadly), but I also don't think anyone should be encouraging "sexual exploration" if that means what we both know it means.

Let's talk about gender stereotypes. You give three categories these may fall into, the third being an issue that needs to be fixed. Then you say:


 *  I am confident that so few would fall into the third category that any objective thinker would dismiss the notion of sexism ingrained into the human psyche, which would in turn jeopardize your foundational belief in the existence of a universal patriarchal order.

Sexism is not necessarily ingrained in the human psyche. It's ingrained in cultures and societies. Feminism does not have a foundational belief in the existence of a universal patriarchal order. However, the vast super-majority of societies have been patriarchal (there are exceptions).

However, there are many gender stereotypes that are harmful. Often these exist in us categorizing certain things as "manly" or "girly" and stigmatizing men who do "girly" things and women who do "manly" things.

One good example is the area of emotional health. Stereotypically, women are considered more emotional than men. As a generalization, this is actually pretty accurate. The harm comes when its used to say that emotional men are somehow less manly. This discourages guys from expressing our emotions in a healthy way by making us think crying is unmanly, etc.

(Note how I gave a stereotype that hurts men. Feminists are about equality for all genders.)

An example that hurts women — when girls display leadership skills, they are often considered "bossy" and "unladylike," whereas boys are called "charismatic" and "manly." This kind of double standard is pervasive, not isolated.

These stereotypes also exist in the area of gender presentation. If I wear pink or have my hair in a top knot/bun (both of which I do), I am perceived as more feminine, even though I identify as a man and am comfortable with my gender as such. Why? Because of stereotypes. These hurt people because they serve to create falsehoods. They create false perceptions and assumptions about people. All because of stereotypes that say certain genders should present in certain ways.

Anyways, this is all off the top of my head. I'd be happy to look at and share research and whatnot, if you want to dispute my claims.

Finally, your challenge.


 * That said, I challenge you to find any single virtue exclusive to feminism that should make anyone consider buying the entire package

For me and my fellow feminists, equality for all genders ‘’’is’’’ the whole package. Yes, there are some radicals. And yes, feminists disagree on methods—but there is room for diversity under this label.