Thread:Madkatmaximus/@comment-25625534-20150602104025/@comment-4845243-20150605033745

Luke McSwagger99 wrote: Obi the LEGO Fan wrote:

Luke McSwagger99 wrote:

Obi the LEGO Fan wrote:

-Nebulous- wrote: "As for ignorance/detest toward LGBT* people...again, the religious right definitely does not exclude this by principle. People on the religious right perpetuate the myth that people choose to be queer, and the myth that "conversion" therapy can work — two falsehoods that have been very harmful to LGBT* people."

I don't want to get involved in writing essays back and forth with you guys, but I'd just like to point out that there is no conclusive evidence that this is biological, so you should probably refrain from calling an opinion fact unless you wanna get burned. :P I would be hesitant to conflate me saying it is not a choice with me saying it is biological. I know for a fact that it is not a choice, based on my own experience and the testimonies of thousands of others, as well as other considerations. However, I do not know for sure what does cause it — my guess is that it is a complex genetic trait, one that is not Mendelian but is instead affected by many factors. But I can't prove that. I can, however, demonstrate that it is not a choice, which is all I'm saying. To say otherwise is to say you know better about the experience of LGBT* people than we do ourselves, which is definitely perpetuating ignorance (and it is pretty arrogant as well, to be frank). That was my point. By implying that it is not a choice you also implied that you perceive it as a natural occurence...but in turn you state that you can't prove that to be true. And what would you mean by "demonstrating" that it is not a choice? I'm not merely implying that it is not a choice, I'm asserting that very emphatically. But no, not all things we don't choose are natural occurrences. Even if you held to the Catholic idea that homosexuality is "disordered," you can still admit it is a disorder that is not chosen. Personally, I don't believe that homosexuality, bisexuality, pansexuality, etc., are disorders, as I already said. Sexual orientation is far too complex for either positions to be proven at the current time.

Demonstrating that it's not a choice? For one, we have the testimonies of thousands of LGBT* people. Are we all lying? Really? You're telling me that's not arrogant for straight people to say? Furthermore, we can do some basic psychological analysis. What motivations are there for "choosing" to be gay, bi, pan, ace? Well, in an extremely limited number of social circles, sure it could be "cool" or "hip." But mainly all it gets us is depression, suffering, anxiety, bullying, rejection, and a bunch of other things because of the reactions and ignorance of our friends, family, and society. I've lived this, so please don't try to tell me that I chose my sexual orientation.

Finally, consider people like those at http://spiritualfriendship.org/ They are conservative Christians who believe marriage is between a man and a woman. However, they are also LGBT* — did they choose this? No. And they have absolutely no motive to choose it, either. If they could change, they would. To suggest otherwise is, quite frankly, absurd. I don't believe they are disorders either; in fact, I assert that emphatically.

I don't intend to imply that the LGBT* community members with testimonies are lying and never was; please refrain from accusing me as arrogant as I try my best to remain sensitive to the feelings and beliefs of others while still effectively presenting my viewpoints. Large groups of people sharing a same belief can easily convince themselves that what they believe is true. The Crusades from 1095-1291 A.D. would be one example. And I'm pretty sure those negative attributes you listed come along with the large majority of passionate beliefs people choose to adopt throughout the course of history. Nevertheless, you are evidently firm in your "I didn't choose the gay life, the gay life chose me" stance so I will not put forth any further effort to alienate you. :P

Hm, I briefed over that site and found it a bit interesting. All I have to note on that is a thought-provoking quote from Ron Belgau, on the site's "About" page. Ron briefly mentions his growing up as a gay teenager. "But God forbade the sexual and romantic love I desired." Well, if we are saying we didn't choose it, and you are saying we did, that's calling us liars, or at least fundamentally confused about ourselves and asserting that you know better than us about our own experience with sexual orientation. I stand by my claim that such an assertion is arrogant. However, I did not, nor am I, accusing you personally of being an arrogant person.

As to your comment about large groups of people. That's ironic, because I didn't have any friends who identify as queer until I started college. I never had more than a few people on this wiki who supported me. Most of my friends and family are conservative, and some would reject me if they knew I was bi. Most LGBT* youth tend to be isolated and alone, not part of some large group that encourages them to believe something. Typically, youth don't come out for years after they know, meaning they wrestle with all the questions for years without receiving assurance from others. Personal experience is what convinces us.

It is also misleading to conflate our experiences with "beliefs" that are clearly chosen. Weak analogy there.

Ron has a lot of interesting stuff to say, indeed. He also thinks that the logical conclusion of the evangelical theology of marriage is that we should allow same-sex marriage, and thinks the only way to oppose it is through the Catholic theology of marriage. I actually agree with him on that, but since I find the Catholic theology of marriage to be unbiblical I cannot embrace it. Him and those like him are the only ones I've seen mount a philosophically coherent attack on same-sex marriage, in fact. It's just not biblical.