Thread:Obi the LEGO Fan/@comment-26436937-20150605034630/@comment-4845243-20150605194406

Satoshi2 wrote: Obi the LEGO Fan wrote: Satoshi2 wrote: Obi the LEGO Fan wrote: Satoshi2 wrote: Obi the LEGO Fan wrote: ShermanTheMythran wrote: Did not even know this thread existed until Luke linked it to me in a PM, after discussing the issue. We seem to both agree that homosexual orientation is not, itself, a choice. The choice is deciding that said orientation is normal or acceptable, and subsequently engaging in homosexual behavior. There are many plausible reasons for sexual deviancy; neither genetic hardwiring nor conscious choice are one of them. The most realistic (and the most data-supported) seem to be confused or unstable nurturing conditions in early life, e.g. a single parent, two parents (or effective guardians) of the same sex, the substitute of a grandparent for one parent of the opposite sex, or otherwise extremely unbalanced exposure to central figures of one particular sex.

As a side note, I have never actually seen anyone argue that people just wake up one day and say "I'm going to be a homosexual" outside the accusations of a given person's ideological opponent. Well, I thought Luke believed that, too, but then he said "What you don't realize is that one aspect of my beliefs regarding homosexuality is that I believe being homosexual is indeed a choice. I dislike that choice. That's my belief."

Also, the idea that it's caused by unstable nurturing conditions is not supported by a lot of data. Scientists and medical professionals tend to say there is no consensus on what causes it, although many factors may come into play. But that's besides the point. So, you're saying we don't know? Yes, the cause is unknown, although a few things can be eliminated, including volition, based on what evidence we do have. I was asking, because perhaps ironically you seem pretty certain that homosexuality is a choice, while at the same time you appear to be saying that we don't know why gay people are gay. Well, just because you know that some answers are wrong, doesn't mean you know the right answer. This is demonstrated perhaps best in the Socratic dialogues, wherein Socrates is constantly showing why certain answers are wrong, but he has no answer himself. We have, as I said, eliminated some of the possibilities. But we still don't know what causes it for sure, since it's such a complex thing. Hopefully that makes sense. :P

Also, I'm pretty certain that homosexuality is not a choice. Is that what you meant to say? :P Okay, sure, Socrates and stuff. I buy that. But if the evidence for poor family situations=homos is lacking, then what evidence is there that homosexuality is a choice?

(yes, that is what I meant; thank you ) The evidence that homosexuality is not a choice is based on data that primarily consists in testimonies. Just like you didn't just one day choose to be straight, I didn't one day choose to be bi. We both just are that way. There are thousands of testimonies by LGBT* people who all say the same thing: we didn't choose. Even LGBT* people who are conservative Christians and are thus committed to a life of celibacy or marriage to a person of the opposite gender state that they did not choose to be that way.

If we consider a brief analysis of motivation, the evidence is even more convincing. What motivation would thousands of people have to lie about their orientation? It turns out, for the vast majority, there is no such motivation. LGBT* people face discrimination, rejection, bullying, etc., by family, friends, and certain social groups. And conservative Christians have even less of a reason to "choose" to be LGBT* — that is, none at all. For those of us in a conservative Christian environment, it brings nothing but hardships. If I could choose, I would be straight, like I tried to be for years. It didn't work.