<div class="quote">BraveNewRoyalty wrote: <p>I'm not "pushing" any boundary. I already explicitly stated many times that the rules have been modified in such a way that it is, a good part of it, now solely interpretive, and that we should have a way to make the rules clear to everybody.  </p> </div> <p>Funny that you thought I was talking about you. </p>

<div class="quote">TheShadowAssassin wrote:
<div class="quote">BraveNewRoyalty wrote: <p>I'm not "pushing" any boundary. I already explicitly stated many times that the rules have been modified in such a way that it is, a good part of it, now solely interpretive, and that we should have a way to make the rules clear to everybody.  </p> </div>Funny that you thought I was talking about you. </div> <p>You were replying to a reply that was directed towards me </p><noscript></noscript>

<div class="quote">BraveNewRoyalty wrote:
<div class="quote">TheShadowAssassin wrote:
<div class="quote">BraveNewRoyalty wrote: <p>I'm not "pushing" any boundary. I already explicitly stated many times that the rules have been modified in such a way that it is, a good part of it, now solely interpretive, and that we should have a way to make the rules clear to everybody.  </p> </div>Funny that you thought I was talking about you.</div>You were replying to a reply that was directed towards me </div> <p>Loney's reply to you had nowhere mentioned you directly, and instead seemed directed at everybody, or so it seemed to me. </p><p>And in my reply, I never specifically mentioned you either, case in point: "Gives the person.." So I was talking about any individual.  </p><p>If you're not pushing any boundaries, good, then I wasn't talking about you. Carry on. </p>

<p><big>Hello, is anyone there? Earth to Mars. This entire petition is worthless because this site's convoluted policies make it impossible for anything to be done here.</big> Hold on, why are we still talking about this? Should I scroll up and read the 20 replies that I skipped over to get to the bottom of this thread? Probably lmao </p>

<p>@Loney's insistence that the boundaries are easy to know: </p><p>Currently, no, they're not. Supposedly mentioning hateful regimes and their leaders in any context outside of serious, historical discussion is disallowed, unless it's Fort and Kira calling each other "Hitler" for twenty minutes before I finally complain about how skewed that is. The "boundaries" are in no way clear, and to be perfectly honest it appears very targeted against Ulrich, Sat, Brick, and myself (the four most outspoken libertarians on the chat -- who also know the most about WWII and talk about it often), with extra emphasis on "chat mods" who are most certainly Rom and Slice, our closest friends in the CM team. </p>

<div class="quote"> <p>Keplers wrote: @Loney's insistence that the boundaries are easy to know: </p><p>Currently, no, they're not. Supposedly mentioning hateful regimes and their leaders in any context outside of serious, historical discussion is disallowed, unless it's Fort and Kira calling each other "Hitler" for twenty minutes before I finally complain about how skewed that is. The "boundaries" are in no way clear, and to be perfectly honest it appears very targeted against Ulrich, Sat, Brick, and myself (the four most outspoken libertarians on the chat -- who also know the most about WWII and talk about it often), with extra emphasis on "chat mods" who are most certainly Rom and Slice, our closest friends in the CM team. </p> </div> <p>Alright, so let's say we do implement this plan. It takes months and months of hard work, arguing about what the definition of offensive is and putting in rules about how many people have to agree that something is offensive before it is - and finally we have a full, huge list of everything you are not allowed to ever say on LMBW. What happens? There will always be something more to vote on, always a new loophole to close up. Maybe I'm not allowed to say I hate jews but does making a joke about showers in Auschwitz count as that? Does jokingly pretending my friend is gay count as offensive? lol i don't know. There is no such thing as a complete list of what is offensive, and to try and create something like that is inevitably ridiculous. It turns out to be a "I know it when I see it" kind of thing, it doesn't work. </p><p>Along with that, we'll be further teaching our CMs to moderate from a list. This is very counter-intuitive as it eliminates the need for a personal discretion. Personal discretion is important because every case is different, we aren't robots here. That's why something liking jokingly calling someone Hitler as Kira and Fort maybe were doing and as has always happened on this wiki (how many jokes have been made about Alemas being Hitler over the past 5 years) can be treated differently than saying Hitler was right or making fun of concentration camps or something like that. Of course I'd prefer it if that didn't happen here at all, I don't think it's right to joke or make fun of a personal tragedy that millions of people went through, but I understand that other people think otherwise. We're just trying to set a middle-ground here. </p>

<div class="quote">Loney 97 wrote:
<p>We're just trying to set a middle-ground here. </p> </div> <p>
...maybe just using common sense, anyone...? </p><noscript></noscript>

<div class="quote"> <p>Alemas2005 wrote: </p> <div class="quote">Loney 97 wrote:
<p>We're just trying to set a middle-ground here. </p> </div> <p>
...maybe just using common sense, anyone...? </p><noscript></noscript> </div> <p>Yeah let's just have all the mods use common sense that'll turn out well </p>

<p><i>Alright, so let's say we do implement this plan. It takes months and months of hard work, arguing about what the definition of offensive is and putting in rules about how many people have to agree that something is offensive before it is - and finally we have a full, huge list of everything you are not allowed to ever say on LMBW. What happens?</i> </p><p>Offensive terms, as Ulrich said, would be determined by community vote. As of the 2016 LMBW census (valid until this January), 21 votes would be the requirement. As for the full, huge list of everything you are not allowed to ever say on LMBW," you clearly didn't read this vote. It's not asking to block all usage of a word (that's what block/unblock censor petitions are for) -- it's asking to block usage of a word in certain context. In the context of -- you know what, read the examples in the OP. That's literally why it's there. </p><p>
<i>There will always be something more to vote on, always a new loophole to close up. Maybe I'm not allowed to say I hate jews but does making a joke about showers in Auschwitz count as that? Does jokingly pretending my friend is gay count as offensive? lol i don't know.</i> </p><p><i>TRUST ME, PAL. THEY DO. WE GOT BANNED FOR THAT.</i>
Actually, no. Slice got banned for making a statement that is true ("I like men"), and Ulrich got banned for calling Slice a racial slur even though Rom, Ulrich, and Slice were all giving each other racial slurs based on Romanian, Japanese, and Hispanic heritage.
Trust me, no loopholes here. </p><p>
<i>There is no such thing as a complete list of what is offensive, and to try and create something like that is inevitably ridiculous. It turns out to be a "I know it when I see it" kind of thing, it doesn't work.</i> </p><p>This list is honestly just for consistency. </p><p>
<i>Along with that, we'll be further teaching our CMs to moderate from a list. This is very counter-intuitive as it eliminates the need for a personal discretion. Personal discretion is important because every case is different, we aren't robots here.</i> </p><p>What are: redx and yellowx words. </p><p>
<i>That's why something liking jokingly calling someone Hitler as Kira and Fort maybe were doing and as has always happened on this wiki (how many jokes have been made about Alemas being Hitler over the past 5 years) can be treated differently than saying Hitler was right or making fun of concentration camps or something like that.</i> </p><p>Nobody has said anything like that. I do make World War II references, and yeah, the Nazis were involved in the war. Referring to how grossly underweight I am, I may refer to some minor camps. Of course, now, joking that Alemas is Hitler is banned. You can check with him on that. </p><p>
<i>Of course I'd prefer it if that didn't happen here at all, I don't think it's right to joke or make fun of a personal tragedy that millions of people went through, but I understand that other people think otherwise.</i> </p><p>Maybe it's because I've read so thoroughly into all of this, but knowledge of those experiences is a normal thing for me. Do I perceive the actions of the Nazis as normal or right? No. But I do carry that knowledge with me as a very normal part of my life since the era is my specialization. The mere mention of Auschwitz does not give the the shock and horror that others may have. </p><p>
<i>We're just trying to set a middle-ground here.</i> </p><p>That's literally the purpose of this vote. </p>

<p>A lot of the conversation in this thread seems a little off the mark. Chat has been fine recently. Moderation has been competent, people haven't been banned, nothing terrible has been reported. </p><p>Not only that, but chat has been leniently moderated. It's been quite chill lately, at least when I've been on. Plenty of stuff is allowed, no one's fun is being ruined by new oppressive crackdowns. </p><p>Such a comprehensive list is definitely not needed. What's needed is common sense and decency. It seems to me the only problem is that a few select users just don't know how to handle themselves on chat. We shouldn't have to make an extensive, tedious master-list for the benefit of a few people who don't know how to behave. </p><p>These users should take their cues from the vast majority of people on this wiki, who use chat without getting banned. </p>